tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post875914469629124979..comments2024-03-28T15:52:07.345-04:00Comments on Daniel Greenfield / Sultan Knish Articles at DanielGreenfield.org : The Universalist HolocaustDaniel Greenfieldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-81603191458311440122019-06-29T16:11:30.499-04:002019-06-29T16:11:30.499-04:00Just received the link to this great analysis and ...Just received the link to this great analysis and shared it on FB. I can add only one thing:<br />Face it. Israel is constantly violating one of the most important human rights. It was a right that humans cherished and enjoyed for millennia. It was the right to attack and murder Jews with impunity.<br />Israel had been created to violate this right. The IDF is violating this right every day by its mere existence. That makes many humans very upset.<br />Leon Mintzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06993023416335325664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-11593766792016620172014-02-13T16:12:14.178-05:002014-02-13T16:12:14.178-05:00You say "To the Universalists, it was an inex...You say "To the Universalists, it was an inexplicable event that challenged the entire progressive understanding of history as a march toward enlightenment." But this is just not the case. We come from a world where tribes have consistantly merged to form alliances and to increase their likelyhood of survival and a happy life - nations are the result of these merging tribes and have inherited their good and bad attributes. As far back as history or even mythology can take us we see a world of conflict. This conflict is not grounded in nationalism or okuniversalism its grounded in our DNA, in our history and our impulse to see ourselves as better than others as well as our desire to take what we can and to seek revenge sometimes presented by the vengeful as justice. Together this potion of emotion and instinct produce a dangerous mix that keeps wars going with each nation believing it is in the right often fueled by religious feuds that have been in action for thousands of years. Universalist understand this. They also understand that in fact the holocaust was executed (no pun intended) by nationalists. <br /><br />Now.. it is one thing for a person to feel sympathy for Palestinians many of whom do suffer from theor current circumstance even if they have often been the pawns of their own people and leaders. It is another thing to be an antisemite and I have no doubt that many who hate israel are fueled by an antisametic sentiment tied their religious and sometimes nationalistic cultures. And yes... some Universalist can be haters in disguise - haters who do not see the contradiction in their own thinking. <br /><br />But make no mistake.... the world's wars are not promoted by u niversalists. And the Universalist ideal is a good one. What would be wrong with a workd of people who do not focus on our differences unless it is to celebrate them ! As for Israel - in a wold of 'nations' with the horrible track record of humanity it is an absolute necessity to have a Jewish state BUT I for one share the dream of peace among a humanity that does not look to provide different rights to different people simply because of where they were born. Sadly I think we are centuries away at best. But to knock the idea and talk of a Universalist Holocaust is twisted.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-46154505596078719392014-02-05T10:22:50.728-05:002014-02-05T10:22:50.728-05:00Democracy isn't a necessary precondition for h...Democracy isn't a necessary precondition for human rights. You can have human rights without democracy and democracy without human rights. It is however easier and more likely to achieve human rights in a democracy. And democracy itself is a human right.<br /><br />Israel is democratic. More so than the Muslim countries surrounding it. Daniel Greenfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-17233360537281174142014-02-05T10:13:50.027-05:002014-02-05T10:13:50.027-05:00OK, democracy is a necessary *but not sufficient* ...OK, democracy is a necessary *but not sufficient* precondition of human rights. It's still a necessary precondition - as the behavior of the Israeli regime shows all too clearly. My question stands. Why does the prospect of democracy in Israel, with equal rights for all, scare you so much? And why would any Jew (or any person) who believes in democracy support a Jewish state, undemocratic by definition?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-11409125234341777672014-02-05T02:20:46.275-05:002014-02-05T02:20:46.275-05:00"And what else were they supposed to do when ..."And what else were they supposed to do when the lessons that they drew from the Holocaust are that the underdog is always right, that people in uniforms are bad and that you always have to stand up for minorities."<br /><br /><br />This makes so much sense it annoys me that I have never seen it stated so eloquently until now. Thank you. :) <br /><br />Bethnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-5003185430088910212014-02-04T11:05:51.025-05:002014-02-04T11:05:51.025-05:00Democratic is a term with very little useful meani...Democratic is a term with very little useful meaning. A nation state is defined by its values more than by its elections. <br /><br />The Arab Spring demonstrated that.Daniel Greenfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-79434207004342271732014-02-04T10:46:54.380-05:002014-02-04T10:46:54.380-05:00I agree that human rights exist only in the contex...I agree that human rights exist only in the context of the nation-state. But they also, really, exist only in the context of democratic nation-states. So why can't Israel be a democracy, with equal rights for all? What is it that scares you so much about a democratic Israel - which, by definition, must mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-46663026752914201522014-02-02T15:41:12.609-05:002014-02-02T15:41:12.609-05:00Ashtonic: A medical condition characterized by fea...Ashtonic: A medical condition characterized by fear of growing horns out of one's head and sprouting hairs on the palms of the hand in the event that one uses the word "Jew".Recommended palliative alternatives: Yehudi, Judean, those of the Mosaic persuasion. For stronger treatment, the following are recommended: Christ killers, well poisoners, Eucharist defilers. (The reference is to Catherine Ashton, foreign secretary of the European Union, who is peculiarly averse to using to the J-word. In fact, she never once mentioned the word Jew in her speech to commemorate International Holocaust Day).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-75200822850968302062014-02-01T18:59:03.610-05:002014-02-01T18:59:03.610-05:00Kevin,
The nation state is the only context withi...Kevin,<br /><br />The nation state is the only context within which rights exist. International law only matters so long as nation states enforce it. The UN has been and remains a joke. <br /><br />Human rights outside the nation state are an idea, not a reality. To make them into reality requires a structure and no transnational structure has been put into practice that can replace the nation state in that regard.<br /><br />"In any event, nations should exist within a federal common law system, as in the roman republic. Natural law is universal, and force needs to be organized globally to enforce those rights. Nations may have their own unique laws that apply to citizens by subscription. Only those laws in common to all nations, should be enforced by the federal global government (not the UN, but something modeled on the roman republic or "coalition of the willing")."<br /><br />That's a dead progressive dream which amounts again to a global nation state as an empire.Daniel Greenfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-30655403915980872602014-02-01T03:51:57.357-05:002014-02-01T03:51:57.357-05:00The nationalism of a modern, vibrant, and very ind...The nationalism of a modern, vibrant, and very independent Jewish nation, which belongs within the mutually accepted realm of Western society, simply cannot be accepted by the radical Left that insists all Western displays of nationalism be absorbed (watered down) by mass immigration from 3rd world countries. They insist, no, they demand, that Jewish independence, and the just nationalism (Zionism) that energized them to achieve their long sought goal, to be vanquished, only then can the sins of the West be finally purged, regardless of how much blood, Jewish blood, is spilled in the process.KGShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09743739958015568193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-67500512472878470522014-01-31T20:48:35.518-05:002014-01-31T20:48:35.518-05:00Kevin Bjornson said...
"I have natural univer...Kevin Bjornson said...<br />"I have natural universal rights because I am human. I have constitutional rights as an American. My natural rights are more inclusive than my constitutional rights. "<br /><br />This is accurate relative to the way the Constitution has been dismantled by the unjust judgments made by the Supreme Courts and the power mongers over the last 100 years. However, our Constitution is designed to uphold the laws of Nature and of Nature's God the Creator of all men. Therefore, when the unjust rulings were made against the authority of God and against the authority of the people (whose lawful permission is granted only by way of the Constitution - not by popular vote) those rulings were unlawful and should have been made of none effect by the people’s refusal to abide by the rulings. God’s authority is higher than any branch of the government and the First Amendment expressly prohibits them from molesting our freedom to practice our religion.<br /><br />Your natural rights and responsibilities have a higher authority than the Constitution and no branch of government has the authority to rescind your natural rights or responsibilities. The Constitution is a contract that records the fact that the government doesn’t have the right to interfere with your freedom to practice your religion. It doesn’t give you that right. It records the fact that God has given you those rights along with responsibilities which are loosely referred to as “the practice of religion” and the government may not interfere with those rights or responsibilities.<br /><br />God has commanded us to teach his commandments to our children, to our children’s children and to the strangers that live among us. We have an obligation before God to see to it that everyone in America knows God’s laws, statutes and judgments and the government doesn’t have the authority to prevent us from doing that any way we see fit. Public property belongs to us not them. The courts belong to us, not them. The schools belong to us, not them. We take back our land by taking it back at the local levels all across America. We defy them in every area and in every relation. Just like Obamacare is destined to die from lack of participation so too, we need to kill the unjust rulings and the unjust judgments by simply refusing to obey them. Force the congress, the senate, the President and the Supreme Court to back down by simply refusing to obey their unlawful laws, unlawful rulings, unlawful regulations. God is not so interested in their unjust judgments as much as in our allowing the unjust judgments to stand.<br /><br />Have a happy day, I just thought it was worth mentioning.Republic Reminderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08154123694487677223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-90520413390400013162014-01-31T16:05:45.312-05:002014-01-31T16:05:45.312-05:00I like this post but I think there's room for ...I like this post but I think there's room for common ground. One way to ensure that it "never again" happens is to "teach tolerance" (though I believe that tolerance is necessary but insufficient: the goal should be respect). <br /><br />We can have nations without war. The Universalist position sounds like the "melting pot" that makes everything the same color gray. I prefer the salad bowl model that includes distinct pockets of character existing harmoniously next to other pockets of character, retaining their differences nonetheless. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-6612892374576151442014-01-31T15:49:48.174-05:002014-01-31T15:49:48.174-05:00Daniel: I didn't say that universal rights nec...Daniel: I didn't say that universal rights necessarily exist within specific nation states. Those living in international waters, Antarctica, and in orbit are not within such territory. They may, but that doesn't necessarily mean the nation state is the sole means of enforcement. <br /><br />Today we have more transnational groups, organizing force and moving across borders as if they did not exist. They may support rights, or violate them. Further, revolution, civil war, or invasion tend to undermine the alleged monopoly that nation states are said to have. <br /><br />I didn't say that universal rights are a mere theory and are given reality by a nation state. Human rights exist regardless of whether or not they are respected or enforced. <br /><br />Your national rights are not natural rights, but at best mere contracts or more likely a form of disguised enslavement. Rights from a national constitution may or may not be enforced by a nation state, but still the rights exist if the contract exists. <br /><br />If the ideas of Judaism are valid for all people, they are universal. If they apply only to the Jewish tribe, they are national rights only. If a nation decides to respect universal rights of those who are not citizens of a tribe, to that extent their national laws are in accord with universal natural rights.<br /><br />"Objective" means more than something that really occurred or really exists. Rights that are unique to one nation, by definition do not apply to all natural persons and hence are subjective. In this sense we are discussing, "objective" refers to natural laws that apply to all natural persons. Hence this means, to be objective means universally applicable to all humans. <br /><br />In any event, nations should exist within a federal common law system, as in the roman republic. Natural law is universal, and force needs to be organized globally to enforce those rights. Nations may have their own unique laws that apply to citizens by subscription. Only those laws in common to all nations, should be enforced by the federal global government (not the UN, but something modeled on the roman republic or "coalition of the willing"). kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10937368884503824487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-37852729243428360372014-01-31T09:07:27.786-05:002014-01-31T09:07:27.786-05:00As someone who has long been puzzled by the dichot...As someone who has long been puzzled by the dichotomy (to me) of <br />the majority of Jewish American voters supporting Democrats, I thank you.<br />Now I get it.<br />Though as Ray asks above---why?? Why can so many people ignore reality?<br />Or why do they chose to? <br />Simply to avoid the hard work that comes with responsibility, both personal and for society?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-13468674238569748382014-01-31T06:55:05.480-05:002014-01-31T06:55:05.480-05:00An idea I thought of decades ago, but never put on...An idea I thought of decades ago, but never put on paper and probably couldn't have done so, so eloquently. Fantastic.GLPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-35182141166255155652014-01-30T22:16:35.264-05:002014-01-30T22:16:35.264-05:00Universalists believe in One World and reject the ...Universalists believe in One World and reject the concept of nation-states (especially the concept of a Jewish nation-state), yet they campaign fervently for the establishment of a new nation-state for an invented nation: the Palestinians.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-58532441348372824662014-01-30T08:40:33.886-05:002014-01-30T08:40:33.886-05:00Daniel, you write very well about what to me is th...Daniel, you write very well about what to me is the obvious. However, it has remained a puzzle to me why American Jews are so "Left" and as you put it "Universalist" in their thinking. I really just don't get it. Even after reading your article, I still don't get it.<br /><br />Seems to me like the typical mental disease of ignoring reality for want of a dream world which cannot, I repeat, cannot be achieved for the simple reason you state early on ... human nature.<br /><br />For all man's supposed advancement, human nature remains the same but this segment of society, not just American Jews, but liberals as a whole refuse to see reality for what it is. Do they not see, hear, feel the blatant anti-semitism right here in America? Do they not see their "brothers" across the ocean hanging on by a thread to a strip of land that the world condemns them for holding on to? Do they not see the state of Israel surrounded by enemies dreaming of that country's destruction? Do they think they can magically pull out a piece of paper that declares them to be a good and upstanding citizen of the world that negates their Jewishness and it will not be held against them if and when the next holocaust comes? They fool only themselves. Only at that moment will it dawn on them what a tool they have been in continuing the efforts to cleanse the world of what some consider to a "problem."<br /><br />Well, I am not Jewish, but I am American, and I stand with Israel because from the right perspective Israel and Jews are the underdogs in this fight. Theirs is the righteous fight, a fight for survival. Long live Israel!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-66215313934000283462014-01-30T00:10:01.843-05:002014-01-30T00:10:01.843-05:00thank you banjothank you banjoDaniel Greenfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-30807590006304922572014-01-30T00:05:47.096-05:002014-01-30T00:05:47.096-05:00Daniel,
Thank you very much for this wonderful pi...Daniel,<br /><br />Thank you very much for this wonderful piece.banjo killdeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15855649963579600764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-13844303321055670342014-01-29T22:54:00.387-05:002014-01-29T22:54:00.387-05:00There have been some arguments that Czarist Russia...There have been some arguments that Czarist Russia was peaceful and the USSR wasn't, though both are pretty misunderstood. Both have been brutal, in many ways more than one, but that is Russian history. They move on.<br /><br />But this quote, "It does not mention the leftist intellectuals who insisted that the Allies were no better than the Nazis or the Communist Universalists of the Soviet Union who allied with Nazi Germany..." is quite true. People today still say they are no different. I. Renardehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08425670722601517036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-8649722694953451662014-01-29T22:43:17.687-05:002014-01-29T22:43:17.687-05:00Tolerance, as Washington wrote in his letter to th...Tolerance, as Washington wrote in his letter to the Jewish congregation, implies condescension. Generosity does not condescend.<br /><br />http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2008/02/george-washingtons-rejection-of.htmlDaniel Greenfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-49437835062310729482014-01-29T22:40:05.795-05:002014-01-29T22:40:05.795-05:00Kevin,
universal rights are a nice theory, but t...Kevin, <br /><br />universal rights are a nice theory, but to the extent that they exist, they exist as you have pointed out within specific nation states. A universal declaration of human rights is worthless. A universalist legal logic can only exist when it piggybacks on a nation state. <br /><br />Rejecting the nation state does not lead to human rights, it destroys the national entity that the universalist depends on. That is what the left is doing to the West.<br /><br />Your natural rights only exist to the extent that you can form a nation state with likeminded people. Without that, your natural rights are an interesting theory. <br /><br />None of that means that Israel shouldn't extend rights to Germans inside Israel or Germany to Jews, what it does mean is recognizing that the structure through which those rights exist is not some borderless brotherhood of man but the specific culture, values and vision of the nation.<br /><br />That is why Muslims have more rights in Israel and Germany than Jews and Christians do in Muslim countries. Both have majorities whose, current, values are to treat people equally. This isn't because they've given up their national rights and culture. If they did, the result would be anarchy, chaos, a battle for survival and some form of feudalism.<br /><br />"If Judaism is true, it true for all natural persons, in all places, and for all time. Certainly the core of the commandments provide a universal moral code. To say that Judaism is true for Jews only, implies that truth is subjective."<br /><br />This seems further off the course, but Judaism represents a specific covenant. It is true for all people in the sense that it objectively took place, in the sense that the American Revolution took place. It does not mean that everyone was involved in that revolution or lives in the United States. But everyone can benefit from the revolution of ideas that took place as a result.Daniel Greenfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-896594221415087962014-01-29T22:32:52.039-05:002014-01-29T22:32:52.039-05:00Excellent article once again. I have a couple of q...Excellent article once again. I have a couple of questions/comments though.<br /><br />"The Jewish response to the Holocaust fell into these two categories; Never Again and Teach Tolerance."<br /><br />Was Jabotinsky involved in Zionism before the Shoah? The first stanza of Shir Betar describes the Jews after the Shoah as a race that is proud, generous and fierce (or cruel, not sure how the lyrics translate into English). It seems to imply correctly I believe, that a Jews natural inclination is to be proud and generous but to be willing to fight for survival. So is there really a contradiction between Never Again and teaching tolerance?<br /><br /><br />Regarding teaching tolerance: A noble goal except there is a critical flaw when it comes to Jews and tolerance in general. In today's world tolerance means accepting what should be intolerable, even if it means tolerating a terrorist state of sorts called Palestine. Hamas wants to destroy Israel. We know this. <br /><br />Tolerance is all well and good but tolerance for evil that aims for genocide? Wouldn't that be a chillul Hashem? So many people want to exploit the desire for tolerance for a tolerance for evil.<br /><br />KeliataAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-48566146150842381352014-01-29T19:41:24.418-05:002014-01-29T19:41:24.418-05:00An excelent post as always,and it ilustrates how d...An excelent post as always,and it ilustrates how delusions of progress are dangerous.It's amazing how many people believe that the brutallity of the past(or for that matter from a remote region in Central Asia)is something so remote from our lives.Toni Pereiranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-20258062490987121462014-01-29T17:29:22.237-05:002014-01-29T17:29:22.237-05:00I would like to piggy back a couple of the comment...I would like to piggy back a couple of the comments. I have never understood how/why any Israeli would work against the best interests of their country. This post explains much. . Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com