tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post5747712464444921894..comments2024-03-29T00:24:13.128-04:00Comments on Daniel Greenfield / Sultan Knish Articles at DanielGreenfield.org : A Jewish AvalonDaniel Greenfieldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-66805020358002387602016-07-20T01:29:00.037-04:002016-07-20T01:29:00.037-04:00Wow - insightful blog. Loved the movie "Aval...Wow - insightful blog. Loved the movie "Avalon" though it broke my heart. Dealing with my own familial disintegration caused me to stumble upon your writing. I got the "gene" to keep the family together though I was the one who fled at a point when everything was turning into chaos. I tried to pull it back together with little success. In the end, it appears that I will watch from the outside as all that exists is a mirage.jeannepoolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07342572393114172672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-5063612554413001122014-01-14T11:07:57.954-05:002014-01-14T11:07:57.954-05:00Yes I think it's reasonably universal in that ...Yes I think it's reasonably universal in that regard. <br /><br />Politics these days is an identity group mainly for the secular left. I would not particularly like to see a conservative movement that had lost all other forms of identity and had nothing else to define themselves by except politics.Daniel Greenfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-69539324339274784602014-01-14T10:27:37.982-05:002014-01-14T10:27:37.982-05:00Sounds interesting, I might check this movie out. ...Sounds interesting, I might check this movie out. I'm from an Irish and Lithuanian Catholic background with a similar experience. Grandparents moved into ethnic urban enclaves, everyone was Catholic, everyone went to Mass every week, big Catholic schools, etc. Their children (baby boomers) thought that had by the 1960's all become a bit passé, and Vatican II, with Mass in the vernacular and modernist churches, didn't help. They moved out to the suburbs, visiting their parents in the "old neighborhood" for holidays. In some sense they can feel that something is missing and tend to blame "corporations" and "racism" for making the world such a miserable place. Now many of my generation have moved back into some of the old neighborhoods that aren't too crime-ridden. Some would be considered hipsters, others are just going where the jobs are. So anyway, I think many non-WASP immigrants have had similar experiences, not only Jews.<br /><br />I think religion is the key to building strong families. Politics is ultimately not that meaningful and encourages brainwashing, and almost all art and entertainment these days, high and low, is fundamentally based on a relativistic worldview that encourages narcissism. Both progressive collectivism and Romantic individualism have been proven lacking, so we're back where we started before the "Enlightenment."<br /><br />One more thing, I wouldn't blame democracy either. Feudalism featured "close family ties," but that's because serfs were tied by law to the same plot of land their entire life. Democracy gives people the freedom to abandon their heritage, if they wish. Once people become mature enough to voluntarily, intentionally choose it, they will become much stronger.Patrick https://www.blogger.com/profile/05255276399870325008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-40260323260280573512014-01-09T11:53:45.525-05:002014-01-09T11:53:45.525-05:00Penetrating essay. You are at your best when you ...Penetrating essay. You are at your best when you don't exclusive blame the "left".<br />Jerome.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-34261210023379628702014-01-09T01:45:56.230-05:002014-01-09T01:45:56.230-05:00Dear mindRider:
Until a couple of years ago, I mi...Dear mindRider:<br /><br />Until a couple of years ago, I might - emphasis MIGHT - have agreed with you. But ritual is premised on belief. Remove the belief and it ain't the ritual. Change the belief and its a different ritual. Performing some act, whether alone or with others, absent its reasons for being and being done in the first place is doing something but not what it was created to be. Good luck on holding fast for very long against the modern assimilative pressures/attractions with such ritual absent G'd. I wouldn't place a serious bet on success.Michael Lee Rosshttp://michaelleeross.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-3780470431609563622014-01-08T21:32:27.183-05:002014-01-08T21:32:27.183-05:00Okay, going off to cry for a bit.Okay, going off to cry for a bit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-87370080200146897582014-01-08T17:26:24.259-05:002014-01-08T17:26:24.259-05:00"Knowing who one "is" may not make ..."Knowing who one "is" may not make life easier, but it does make it more 'solid'." <br /><br />Not sure what you meant by "solid," but "knowing who one is" and not denying it does answer a lot of questions and perhaps plow the right path. No matter the nationalism, all of us have given up who we are and what our "center" should be for, quite frankly, absolutely nothing--eternal death.<br /><br />Love the article and premise of this movie because the Jews do have an incredible history worth cherishing from generation to generation. They are a people I've grown to love from their history and the fact they were so special to God that He chose them as the people of his Son.<br /><br />How more insidious could Satan be by destroying God's chosen people. How much worse that the Jews let Satan do it. I really think it's as simple as that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-74722573874220580132014-01-08T14:06:03.793-05:002014-01-08T14:06:03.793-05:00It is for a large part maintaining the religious r...It is for a large part maintaining the religious rituals that binds us Jews, both inside and outside of the direct family clan. Mind you, not the believing in a G'd but just following the ritual cycle bonds us.mindRiderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12160934421830568737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-73094764534937549762014-01-08T12:05:26.652-05:002014-01-08T12:05:26.652-05:00Michael, I'm not sure that I would go so far a...Michael, I'm not sure that I would go so far as to blame democracy. A lot of the factors are more modern, though certainly the nanny state and the corporation have played a large part.Daniel Greenfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-46821082139124892532014-01-08T12:04:31.533-05:002014-01-08T12:04:31.533-05:00I'm not saying that his message was to become ...I'm not saying that his message was to become more religious, but nor do I think it was a message about America breaking down family. He emphasizes television a great deal. There's no mention of social activism or any of the usual lefty stuff. <br /><br />Nor does the movie cling to the idea that the Avalon lifestyle could have gone on. Regardless of the move, the area was torn down anyway.Daniel Greenfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-52021426944676273012014-01-08T11:57:44.208-05:002014-01-08T11:57:44.208-05:00Not sure I saw the film that you did. I don't ...Not sure I saw the film that you did. I don't think Barry Levinson was trying to say Jews should be more Jewish but that America itself is completely false and to do so he has to go completely over the top. Warehouse burns down, just because, etc., etc. If he really felt American values are shallow why go to Hollywood anyway? He was saying America breaks down family. Family gatherings are replaced by isolated suburban homes but liberals think the cure is for everyone to live as urban hipsters. I think that was more the message. If everyone were good proles living in row houses and being social activists that would have been the happy ending,. I don't think it was about building Yeshivas.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-67064852711354074842014-01-08T10:06:34.106-05:002014-01-08T10:06:34.106-05:00Daniel,
Thanks so much for clearly articulat...Daniel,<br /><br /> Thanks so much for clearly articulating what I myself have seen, and come to ponder, about Jewish life in the United States, in 2013. <br /><br /> Your observations about "Avalon" seem to reflect thoughts by Samuel Heilman, in his 1995 book "Portrait of American Jews - The Last Half of the 20th Century".<br /><br /> Similarly, perhaps there is resonance with this observation by Alexis de Tocqueville:<br /><br /> "Thus not only does democracy make every man forget his ancestors, but it hides his descendants, and separates his contemporaries from him; it throws him back forever upon himself alone, and threatens in the end to confine him entirely within the solitude of his own heart."<br /><br /> Then again, though "Avalon" and your essay obviously pertain to the United States, I would think that the issues you've raised - the extraordinary difficulty of maintaining and perpetuating overlapping networks of belief, identity, and kinship - have been issues confronting the Jewish people in all eras and locales since the first, halting steps of Jewish "Emancipation" in the Napoleonic Era. If not earlier. <br /><br /> In that sense, the issue goes far beyond the United States, per se. <br /><br /> Well... Commentator "Anonymous" is quite correct that these general issues confront all peoples in a world of shifting identity and dissolving beliefs, not only Jews. <br /><br /> It is this realization that has made this ostensibly "secular" Jew increasingly come to respect Torah-Observant Jewry, despite its problems and challenges. <br /><br /> Knowing who one "is" may not make life easier, but it does make it more "solid". <br /><br /> Don't know if you'll agree, but thanks so much for writing this.<br /><br />(Michael)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-21014518287784487952014-01-08T09:06:31.400-05:002014-01-08T09:06:31.400-05:00I can see this as a template for just about every ...I can see this as a template for just about every American family scattered across the nation.<br />Profound insight...as usual.<br />- BarbaCatAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-75906698360683054072014-01-08T09:04:13.131-05:002014-01-08T09:04:13.131-05:00For a view of just one televised "Avalon,&quo...For a view of just one televised "Avalon," rent the first season of HBO's series, <br />Weeds. <br /><br />In it, a struggling widow (whose husband was a loose strand of American Jewry) deals drugs. And she does this with complete amoral abandon. The show's makers attempt to excuse this criminality by hinting that she is forced to do it by society: an admission that they think that the centrifugal forces of consumerism are forgivable counters to the archaic, Jewish family structure.<br /><br />If she'd only moved the kids out of the 'burbs into a modest trailer park, and taken a receptionist's gig at a local dentist's office, instead... <br />-steveazAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-80111083400029320962014-01-08T04:16:04.845-05:002014-01-08T04:16:04.845-05:00I agree with Anon above - the movie and Daniel'...I agree with Anon above - the movie and Daniel's excellent interpretation has significance for all peoples who rush from their fuddy-duddy history (culture, belief systems, religion) to bright new consumer empires and multiculti worlds of emptiness.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-35969823554990500632014-01-08T01:36:30.916-05:002014-01-08T01:36:30.916-05:00An observation: Jewish siblings (including my own)...An observation: Jewish siblings (including my own) rarely appear capable of bonding with genuine love and support over the lifetime. More often than not, I have seen Jewish siblings become fractured, embittered and fraught with unresolved conflict on into later life. I don't see this problem to the same extent among, say, the large families of my Catholic friends who appear better able to rise above hurts and still find joy in family cohesiveness. Is this yet another result of creeping secularism? Maybe.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-38975147971743373472014-01-07T23:36:14.095-05:002014-01-07T23:36:14.095-05:00Wow! A bleak metaphor, true for many peoples, as ...Wow! A bleak metaphor, true for many peoples, as well. With good and less good perturbations, for all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com