tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post3758653113248466164..comments2024-03-18T19:14:18.804-04:00Comments on Daniel Greenfield / Sultan Knish Articles at DanielGreenfield.org : No Victory But DefeatDaniel Greenfieldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-43553114694361131842011-10-28T10:22:11.761-04:002011-10-28T10:22:11.761-04:00I don't see the point of this argument. I thin...I don't see the point of this argument. I think you've misunderstood what I was saying while focusing on one word and placing far too much emphasis on it.Daniel Greenfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-50841261812981708652011-10-27T01:39:36.690-04:002011-10-27T01:39:36.690-04:00What the hell is an "emotional argument"...What the hell is an "emotional argument" exactly ? And why it must be "won" ?<br />I suppose our real goal is national survival and protection of our culture. Our enemies will not change their attitude towards us, no matter what we do, even if we somehow transform our military into a uberbadass hybrid of Waffen SS and Darth Vader's Galactic Imperial Startroopers and then proceed to nuke the entire Middle East.<br /><br />We should only care about defeating the enemy and achieving our goals with minimal risk to our troops. We must try to leave the "dying" part to the enemy.<br />They always brag about their readiness to die for their psychotic jihadist BS. I see no reason why we shouldn't arrange exactly that. Does a killed jihadist qualify as an argument ? Is it an "emotional argument" ? For me - yes. I experience very positive emotions whenever jihadist fanatics or their supporters get killed by our military.<br /><br />Understanding the psychology (mindset) of our enemy is important for achieving our goals. But their actual immediate emotions are of no particular significance. Why should we give a damn ?Cynical infidel corporalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-19312632827526846102011-10-26T23:10:28.061-04:002011-10-26T23:10:28.061-04:00I used "die" because it's key to the...I used "die" because it's key to the overall point of the article.<br /><br />Most people are going to respond to emotional arguments at a core level. That doesn't mean not making rational arguments, it means working within human realities, rather than expecting them to be what they are not.<br /><br />It's not a question of whether it's ok or not, my view of how things should be does not change how they are.Daniel Greenfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-3263597923091695582011-10-26T21:24:21.153-04:002011-10-26T21:24:21.153-04:00Why "hardy" ? The call to "die for ...Why "hardy" ? The call to "die for your ideas and your country" is a trademark rhethoric of hurrah-patriotic ideologues everywhere.<br />You should have used the word "fighting" instead. Huge difference, even in the emotional context.<br /><br />And why you apriori accept that most people aren't going to think and act rationally ? Do you really have such a low opinion of man's capacity to think ? All mentally healthy (sane) people can use their brains properly, as intended. Even those who choose not to do so.<br />It's a conscious effort - to think. Certainly this effort may cause emotions. All good art is based on this. While valuable, even these meaningful, rational, deep emotions are merely secondary consequences, not primary causes. But vague, irrational, "causeless" emotions are just worthless however. <br /><br />Do you think it's OK when people choose not to think and act rationally, but instead prefer to rely on emotional attitudes that appear from nowhere ?<br /><br />Undecipherable raw emotionalism is not helpful in any decision making.<br />Heck, even our fanatical enemies aren't entirely irrational. Actually they are currently more rational than we are. This is how bad the situation really is...Cynical infidel corporalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-72520534577008007442011-10-26T17:03:28.751-04:002011-10-26T17:03:28.751-04:00"Once you admit that you would rather not die..."Once you admit that you would rather not die for your ideals or your country, then you have lost the emotional argument to those who will."<br /><br />Is hardly rah-rah patriotism. And I'm discussing the reality of human attitudes which are emotional. Most people are not about to act rationally or think rationally. Factoring that out of any decision making process is not rational.Daniel Greenfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-56885243095139208522011-10-26T16:29:59.854-04:002011-10-26T16:29:59.854-04:00It's the last sentence in your article that I ...It's the last sentence in your article that I find objectionable. Apparently you wanted to say something else. If so, then you certainly should have phrased it differently. Because otherwise it not only sounds like preachy hurrah-patriotic rhethoric, but also implicitly suggests that we should adopt the attitude of our enemies in order to win "the emotional argument". <br />Using military force is not an "emotional argument". It's an entirely rational and logical argument against the fanatical psychotic enemy hell-bent on our destruction.<br />And it's our unfortunate misguided propensity towards "emotional arguments" that got us into this mess. Until we reject emotionalism, stop irrational moralizing and start acting rationally - we are screwed.Cynical infidel corporalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-50484978064825972262011-10-26T13:27:41.035-04:002011-10-26T13:27:41.035-04:00I don't see a call to die for ideals or suicid...I don't see a call to die for ideals or suicidal martyrdom in my article. Maybe it's there and I missed it, but I just don't see it.Daniel Greenfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-4995641734157596502011-10-26T13:23:07.971-04:002011-10-26T13:23:07.971-04:00I agree with you.
My point is that the right to de...I agree with you.<br />My point is that the right to defence and the desire to protect your family, your society and your freedom is not the same as the willingness "to die for ideals and the country". Defence is not a sacrifice of any kind and definitely not a suicidal "martyrdom".<br />No soldier wants to die. But every soldier wants to win the fight.<br />This is precisely the difference between the mentality of the pacifist loons and the mentality of those who choose armed defence against the enemy. It's the pacifists who idolize "sacrifice".<br />Ironically, in the end it's the pacifists who are actually willing to "die for ideals". But whenever these loons start talking about yet another "sacrifice for peace", a quote from Ayn Rand comes to my mind: <br /><br />“It only stands to reason that where there’s sacrifice, there’s someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there’s service, there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master.”Cynical infidel corporalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-62706550316741438952011-10-25T17:38:22.294-04:002011-10-25T17:38:22.294-04:00I'm not talking about patriotism or calling fo...I'm not talking about patriotism or calling for war for the greater glory of Israel. I'm saying that the alternative to believing in the right to defend yourself is nonexistence.Daniel Greenfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-13744066452944070932011-10-25T13:47:32.532-04:002011-10-25T13:47:32.532-04:00I mean, I like your articles (really). But it'...I mean, I like your articles (really). But it's easy for you to be such a passionate hurrah-patriot, when you are in New York.Cynical infidel corporalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-55852842626231781772011-10-25T12:46:20.487-04:002011-10-25T12:46:20.487-04:00what do you mean?what do you mean?Daniel Greenfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-45910220212370828152011-10-25T12:29:04.707-04:002011-10-25T12:29:04.707-04:00"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his c..."No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. <br />He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."<br />(Attributed to General George Patton Jr.)<br /><br />THIS is the attitude we need !<br />Aren't you against "ritualized self-sacrifice", Daniel ? Then what was that glorification of "dying for ideals and country" at the end of your otherwise sane article ? Israelis must not and will not become "shahids" or "kamikaze". Let's leave the psychotic death cult mentality to our enemies and stick with just shooting the bastards. "Old school".<br />I value my life. And I assume that you probably value yours even more, given that I'm in Haifa (and very close to an ugly local mosque in a troublesome muzzie neighbourhood), while you are ... where ?... NY ?...Cynical infidel corporalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-78572872380616142572011-10-24T10:56:58.426-04:002011-10-24T10:56:58.426-04:00For 5 years everybody was waiting for the Army and...For 5 years everybody was waiting for the Army and they tried their best I am sure, and decided against it.<br /> Nobody goes for such a deal without considering the obvious.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-15136172315105604502011-10-24T10:27:26.124-04:002011-10-24T10:27:26.124-04:00The 80 percent is the product of a biased media cl...The 80 percent is the product of a biased media climate and a commitment to IDF soldiers.<br /><br />But what would the numbers be for a military operation to retake Gaza vs the Hamas deal.<br /><br />Hezbollah got what it wanted, it will try again on its timetable. And its timetable is the Iranian timetable.<br /><br />The bizarre "Hamas won't do it again" meme seems to be coming from Barak on down. It makes no sense and depends on people like Barak whispering that they made Hamas pay behind the scenes. <br /><br />Hamas itself has said that it will do it again.<br /><br />Unlike Hezbollah, Hamas is in a more urgent struggle with Israel.Daniel Greenfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-76282794975599772052011-10-24T10:23:07.205-04:002011-10-24T10:23:07.205-04:00Some convert, since Judaism doesn't actually m...Some convert, since Judaism doesn't actually missionize, it's unusual, but a relative of a Hamas leader converted<br /><br />Islam's basic instability means that like any unstable element it constantly has to pass off its energy to more stable vesselsDaniel Greenfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-58558904932844955502011-10-24T10:21:24.166-04:002011-10-24T10:21:24.166-04:00All the commentators here assume that they know al...All the commentators here assume that they know all the facts and that everybody in Israel is stupid [ at least the 80% that agreed to the deal including the Army , the secret services and so on ]. <br />Don't you feel a little bit strange that you are so sure of yourselves and still oppose most of those that live there ? <br />I am not talking about the moral dilemmas because this may involve cultural differences between US and Israel , I am talking about the considerations of security "winning" and "loosing" and so on. <br />According to your logic, the Hizbulla should have continued with kidnapping after they got their prisoner. Why don't they try ? <br />The point is that the price they pay for what they do is not only what they tell you and when they brag it does not mean that they really win. <br />It is obvious that for some reason the army could not rescue Gilad without endangering too many and that only now when Hamas is not sure where they stand with the Arab "spring" they agreed to compromise.<br />P.s. There are Arabs that convert to JudaismAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-55021061200059240292011-10-24T06:24:20.317-04:002011-10-24T06:24:20.317-04:00Daniel, I agree with you, if a soldier is captured...Daniel, I agree with you, if a soldier is captured they should go in and get them. i was puzzled for ages about why the Israelis did not sinmply tear their way through until they found him.TBSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-55973807251628489372011-10-24T06:16:46.926-04:002011-10-24T06:16:46.926-04:00Another point re your comment about external valid...Another point re your comment about external validation.<br /><br />Ironically it is actually Islam that must constantly refuel its external validation, by conquest, conversion, pedophile preganancies etc.<br />It cannot afford to simply sit still because it relies on the existence of enemies - RICH enemies it can plunder - for its sustenance.<br /><br /><br />I read often of Muslims converting to Christianity. I wonder if any actually convert to Judaism. Idle curiosity.TBSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-42213319545196691712011-10-24T06:06:05.619-04:002011-10-24T06:06:05.619-04:00kristin, you and I are on the same wavelength...kristin, you and I are on the same wavelength...TBSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-65713835848271598242011-10-24T06:04:40.966-04:002011-10-24T06:04:40.966-04:00Really excellent piece, Sultan, you've pushed ...Really excellent piece, Sultan, you've pushed some new thoughts into my head. :)<br /><br />I think actually a lot of people feel the way you do.<br /><br />However, I don't think israel's actions come from the simple desire to be loved by our enemies.<br />The jewish culture is one of compassion and caring for the world. Don't forget that Tikkun Olam is a prevailing principle. For a people with such a culture, it is simply extremely diffcicult to act with disdain for human beings, enemies or not, because the imperative to recognise all people as potential neshamot is within us.<br /><br />This is why a country has a miltary - to cut through all that philosophising and simply act in defence of the people, soldiers and country itself.<br /><br />What I am hoping for is this. Let us take the pragmatic view that at least Shalit has been returned. <br />There are, as far as I know, no Israeli souls in a Hamas hell.<br /><br />The thing to do NOW is to formulate a new strategy - come down MUCH harder on terrorists ie if they get captured, they die.<br />No mercy for these killers, especially if caught in action.<br />Make sure no soldiers get captured in the future.<br />Cut off power and water to the Palestinians -let the Europeans and the aid junkies take care of them.<br /><br />In other words, while compassion is a good value to have, let the government of Israel act as if each Israeli life is truly valuable, and stop mucking about!!<br /><br />Citizens and various charity groups already help a lot of Muslims and that's fine if they want to. But unfortunately that is not the job of the army.<br /><br />Israel will be hated and criticised whatever it does. So at least let it act with benefit and protection of its citizens.TBSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-90133414566838504712011-10-24T00:38:53.880-04:002011-10-24T00:38:53.880-04:00I only pray that in the future, Israel will show n...I only pray that in the future, Israel will show no mercy, and crush these demons tenfold for the slightest, Shalit should be the final line drawn in the sand, and when the Muslim terrorist views this as weakness, blind him so there is no vision, But, to the point, Israel is a microcosm of the death throes of the West perpetrated by the same spineless left who would not fight to save their own asses but would be looking for one to Kiss, I don't know anymore, this "Ship of Fools" we have as American Government think they have some place to hide after they created so much havoc in the world and here, but then again, is not that always been man's dilemma,no immediate consequences, and is it not the priviledged and elite who are so careless and rise to power and send others to fight for their flawed views of reality, MY G-D, how far have we fallen?Greg RNnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-28751451102731387192011-10-23T21:13:10.993-04:002011-10-23T21:13:10.993-04:00I endorse that sentiment @ cornholio...Hopefully I...I endorse that sentiment @ cornholio...Hopefully Israel spiked their last supper with bull's eye microchips! <br />Re Linda R & Hermit L:<br />After the horrors of the holocaust and the tears, toil, sweat & blood expended in re-establishing a homeland for the Jews, it ought not to be considered folly for Israel to take a calculated risk to rescue a young IDF soldier out of the hands of the most cruel,callous, bloodthirsty, murdering thugs on the face of the earth today! <br />Who cares for Israelis if Israel does not?<br />Bibi Netanyahu is deserving of credit for having a heart of compassion for his people! <br />He knows the cost... his brother Yoni sacrificed his life to bring home the hostages from Entebbe!Kristin Solonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-77528251793299327192011-10-23T18:56:16.255-04:002011-10-23T18:56:16.255-04:00What a depressing article. Still-in-all I'm gl...What a depressing article. Still-in-all I'm glad Gilad is free and I hope the released muslime scumbags have plenty of opportunities to catch a good case of lead poisoning.Kufar Dawghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13710592269001257962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-69055215005688808462011-10-23T17:36:50.222-04:002011-10-23T17:36:50.222-04:00I'm not too sure the prospect of being abandon...I'm not too sure the prospect of being abandoned for five years while your parents stage protests until enough terrorists are freed from jail is really that much of a morale booster<br /><br />as opposed to, if you're captured, we'll go in and get you right away and not stop until we doDaniel Greenfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-34693474559125032572011-10-23T17:26:22.876-04:002011-10-23T17:26:22.876-04:00Daniel -
I have no major argument with your arti...Daniel - <br /><br />I have no major argument with your article. <br /><br />I just wanted to note that one of the justifications the government gave for ransoming Shalit was to strengthen morale among the current troops and future draftees, by demonstrating that they would not be easily abandoned. Sounds like a weak argument to me, but take it for whatever you think it's worth.<br /><br />Certainly there were political/electoral considerations in play as well. This is unavoidable. Shalit was a political football for the Left; Netanyahu took that ball away. I wonder if this was the major consideration. <br /><br />And they said it clears the table so that the Iran issue can be dealt with without distraction. Another weak argument.Jack Feldnoreply@blogger.com