tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post7463000795810462236..comments2024-03-29T11:05:38.781-04:00Comments on Daniel Greenfield / Sultan Knish Articles at DanielGreenfield.org : Shas and Shimon PeresDaniel Greenfieldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-21252185005085288042007-05-09T19:46:00.000-04:002007-05-09T19:46:00.000-04:00things were always going to turn out 'differently'...things were always going to turn out 'differently'<BR/><BR/>setting up a terrorist state was never going to prevent the spilling of blood... one didn't need to be a general to understand that<BR/><BR/>the illegal payments that were made to shas was the real basis for shas' support of Oslo. A Psak created to benefit yourself has no validity even if it had turned out for the best. A psak made to benefit Shas that cost thousands of lives-- is a horrific act.<BR/><BR/>In payment Shas joined forces with secularists whose ultimate goal was the destruction of religion and whose policies have drawn close the destruction of the State of Israel. Hakesef Yaaneh et Hakol.<BR/><BR/>To do so Shas lied to its own voters. It betrayed whatever principles it had and its actions have left yetomim and almonot across the land-- and instead of changing, Shas today continues to prop up the Olmert government in the aftermath of the Lebanon War.<BR/><BR/>"I consider the sanctity of Eretz Yisrael and the sanctity of its Torah institutions of equal importance." <BR/><BR/>What about the sanctity of Jewish lives? The sanctity of the land is for most an abstract. The sanctity of lives is not. If another catastrophe strikes Israel under this government-- what will the response of Shas be? The generals fooled us again?<BR/><BR/>"If you are one to say that Rav Ovadia's deeds are not as great as his learning, I refer you back to the link I linked to earlier."<BR/><BR/>I can't speak for his learning, I can speak for his deeds and there is no one alive today who can match the learning of men who have been reviled for thousands of years for what they did.Daniel Greenfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-33694056812897908412007-05-09T15:04:00.000-04:002007-05-09T15:04:00.000-04:00Reb Sultan,The basis for your statements are that ...Reb Sultan,<BR/>The basis for your statements are that R' Ovadia was receiving money and thereby spilling blood.<BR/>Has Veshalom!!!<BR/>Rav Ovadia's Psak was intended to prevent the spilling of blood. Things, we know, unfortunately, turned out differently.<BR/>However, the Psak - Bimkomo Omed. Unfortunately, the generals at the time misinformed Rav Ovadia Shlit"a and he therefore supported Oslo.<BR/><BR/>I consider the sanctity of Eretz Yisrael and the sanctity of its Torah institutions of equal importance. On this, we apparently differ.<BR/><BR/>If you are one to say that Rav Ovadia's deeds are not as great as his learning, I refer you back to the link I linked to earlier.yaakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08179304707239865515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-21278080391287151402007-05-09T13:34:00.000-04:002007-05-09T13:34:00.000-04:00these are not merely "political considerations", t...these are not merely "political considerations", they're life and death for hundreds, thousands and even millions of people<BR/><BR/>obtaining money for an organization is not worth human life-- certainly not a single murdered child<BR/><BR/>there is no halachic basis for being a party to spilling blood in order to obtain money for torah education<BR/><BR/>that's such a fundamental inversion of Darchei Hashem it's hard to find a better example <BR/><BR/>it would be a thousand times better and more moral and more halachically acceptable to set up a beit znus and collect money from that to fund torah education-- than to do this<BR/><BR/>supporting leaders like peres and olmert and backing plans like Oslo means playing with the annihilation of millions of Jews-- at worst it's risking another Holocaust to obtain funding for schools<BR/><BR/>that isn't a necessary evil-- it's simply evil<BR/><BR/>if there is no israel, there will be no torah institutions to support in either case, compromising everyone's survival to obtain some shekels means drilling a hole in the boat to get a little water<BR/><BR/>I wasn't making a comparison to yerovam, based on what the gemara says-- there's no point of comparison since he was a far greater talmid chacham than anyone today could possibly dream of being<BR/><BR/>but knowing torah and living torah can be two different things and a gadol is only as great as his deeds are-- not as great as his learning is<BR/><BR/>that is the lesson of yerovam and of so many other great talmidei chachamim, one of which massacred the kohanim of nov <BR/><BR/>lo hakesef yaaneth et hakol, HaKadosh Baruch Hu yaaneh et hakolDaniel Greenfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-52003356817435750762007-05-09T12:04:00.000-04:002007-05-09T12:04:00.000-04:00The "political deals" that you discuss have halach...The "political deals" that you discuss have halachic merit. Supporting Torah education at times outweighs other political considerations.<BR/><BR/>Their support for Peres has more to do with their mutual agreement on how to deal with the economy more than anything else.<BR/><BR/>Their support for Olmert, as much as it stinks, is a necessary evil. They need to be in the government to support Torah education. Yes, it comes down to money. Hakesef Ya'ane et Hakol. But, as bad as that sounds, it's the truth, and again, a necessary evil.<BR/><BR/>Your comparisons to Yeravam ben Nevat and Korah Ve'adato is not something you or I can make. I vehemently protest making such comparisons, even if you think that they are Emes. There are many rabbis that I vehemently disagree with, and I dare not make such comparisons.<BR/><BR/>Read <A HREF="http://yeranenyaakov.blogspot.com/2006/02/bizui-talmidei-hachamim.html" REL="nofollow">this</A> for more details.yaakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08179304707239865515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-63967272605275678132007-05-08T21:16:00.000-04:002007-05-08T21:16:00.000-04:00oslo was part of the larger spectrum of the kind o...oslo was part of the larger spectrum of the kind of political deals shas has cut over and over again<BR/><BR/>and eli yishai suggested that supporting disengagement was on the table<BR/><BR/>and how exactly do you justify 'rav deri's support for peres then and now?<BR/><BR/>great decisions in the knesset, can you please tell me what those are?<BR/><BR/>need I really mention shas' current support for olmert and yishai rebuking amsalem for even suggesting olmert should resign?<BR/><BR/>titles do not make someone above reproach and shas has done too much damage for its leadership to have any kind of immunity<BR/><BR/>I could go into what kind of gadol yerovam was or the greatness of the 250 with korach but you know all that better than meDaniel Greenfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-52009926603109532312007-05-08T18:32:00.000-04:002007-05-08T18:32:00.000-04:00Reb Sultan, you are wrong.The Shas MKs are very fi...Reb Sultan, you are wrong.<BR/>The Shas MKs are very fine people, and Rav Ovadia Yosef, Shlit"a is the Gadol Hador.<BR/>As much as I normally like your writing, this post is over the top, and shows much disrespect to Rav Ovadia, Shlit"a.<BR/>Rav Deri was railroaded to jail, as Ben-Yehuda mentioned above.<BR/>Yishai was and is anti-Disengagement.<BR/>Those who hate Shas scream "Oslo, Oslo, Oslo!!!" Yes, Oslo was a mistake, but one that was made via a sound halachic process.<BR/>Other than that one mistake, Shas has only made great decisions in the Kenesset.<BR/>This whole post screams of terrible motzi shem ra, and I hereby file my objection to it.yaakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08179304707239865515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-12032983273247635592007-05-07T01:21:00.000-04:002007-05-07T01:21:00.000-04:00yes they all sell themselves for a shekel and a bm...yes they all sell themselves for a shekel and a bmwDaniel Greenfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-47702939924737911562007-05-07T01:12:00.000-04:002007-05-07T01:12:00.000-04:00shalom sultan...when barak was p.m. shas and meret...shalom sultan...when barak was p.m. shas and meretz were enemies...then all of a sudden in order to keep barak in power they merged and became part of his government...that was the moment that both those parties for me became 'toast'...great post txmarallyn ben moshehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04687599765928616825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-27048993171540310342007-05-06T18:54:00.000-04:002007-05-06T18:54:00.000-04:00I do find it curious that the only really successf...I do find it curious that the only really successful Sephardi party is Shas, given that (and I could be wrong about this), as with Ashkenazim, there is a large proportion of Sephardim who are not haredi. Yet the chiloni Sephardim seem to always split their vote between Likud and Labor, neither of whom seem to take them very seriously (and when Sephardim get into positions of power within those parties, they seem to have a bad habit of forgetting about their own communities).<BR/><BR/>What happened to the Israel Black Panthers of the 70s? Did they just fade away into the establishment parties?<BR/><BR/>Peres? Ugh. I find him intolerable. He's the epitome of what's wrong with Israeli politics, a man who's never met a cause he didn't mind selling out. The only good part about him becoming President is that he'd finally be pushed out of any real leadership position.<BR/><BR/>Regarding criminality- it's rather disheartening that corruption and disrespect for the law (and by extension, the citizens) seems to run so deep in the Knesset.Friar Yid (not Shlita)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10311439778319103094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-14234965246613577602007-05-06T17:55:00.000-04:002007-05-06T17:55:00.000-04:00home education, I am telling you people.. its the ...home education, I am telling you people.. its the only answer :D<BR/>but do you listen to moi??<BR/>NOooooooooooooooChana @ Lemon Lime Moonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11656854855385193867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-50927782911863020892007-05-06T14:01:00.000-04:002007-05-06T14:01:00.000-04:00I'm sure when it comes to the money funding the sc...I'm sure when it comes to the money funding the schools the response would be, "You do what you have to do. It's all for a good cause."<BR/><BR/>It tends to be the most popular excuse I've heard.Yobeeonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13067866336964665242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-24541308564173091062007-05-06T12:17:00.000-04:002007-05-06T12:17:00.000-04:00That's terrible.Did I read correctly, that Shas is...That's terrible.<BR/><BR/>Did I read correctly, that Shas is promising voters that they'll go to heaven if they vote for them? How manipulative is that?<BR/><BR/>It smacks of something else, too, but I don't want to write it, since its supports are decent people. The comparision would be wrong.<BR/><BR/>Still, reading it the first time around, that voters would go to heaven...sigh. Why are they telling voters THAT?Keli Atahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05089132216830000713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-71844368646891250422007-05-06T11:25:00.000-04:002007-05-06T11:25:00.000-04:00they're trying to shut down his stationthey're trying to shut down his stationDaniel Greenfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-26580104077343440432007-05-06T10:10:00.000-04:002007-05-06T10:10:00.000-04:00how is Shas warring against Rav Mordechai Eliyahu ...how is Shas warring against Rav Mordechai Eliyahu shlitat, who is a real tzadik unlike other unmentioned RabbisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-10441248946663825522007-05-06T02:34:00.000-04:002007-05-06T02:34:00.000-04:00yupthe establishment crooks get a blank check beca...yup<BR/><BR/>the establishment crooks get a blank check because they're part of the old boys network<BR/><BR/>peres himself should have been in jail ten times overDaniel Greenfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13575285186581875356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11368628.post-14535535712845081202007-05-06T02:15:00.000-04:002007-05-06T02:15:00.000-04:00B"H I really which your logic was wrong about Sha"...B"H I really which your logic was wrong about Sha"S and its motivations, but it right on. Even more so, Aryeh Deri was convicted on the basis of one witness, a known criminal who was finally tracked down and brought back to Israel. Deri also sat in jail, while Ashkinazi crooks like Pres. Ezer Weitzman ran around freely.Esser Agarothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12853681733864707489noreply@blogger.com